Curse

Tenebrae · Dec 28, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

You're of course missing the point. Nerf SF now, and something will come along to replace it, as it has done since the beginning of the game.

No , dont be mistaken, NOTHING will come along just "by magic" . Dont be mistaken , 2nd becomes 1st when 1st goes out but it doesnt mean 2nd is AS POWERFUL as 1st. The rank of unbalanced stuff goes 1 step down and if that step is SF , it is a BIG step.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Those calling for a skill nerf need to wake up and realize the real issue at hand, GW will NEVER be balanced for all the professions unless the gameplay itself is altered to accommodate ALL THE PROFESSIONS.

Yeah there are lots of broken stuff so , fix all or fix none ? MEEEEEECK wrong. There are other killers out of jail so lets free the ones that are in jail too ! . Not a valid argument.

Doing nothing , changes nothing. Doing things change things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

GW will die a slow and painful death into obscurity, rather than enjoy a revival which would be accomplished by addressing the game's actual flaws.

Yeah , SF rework and 600/smite changes will slowly killl the game ... all of a sudden because game isnt dying now , right .
That is the same reason as the number #3 in the "WTF is this guy thinking" list :

#3 "if you nerf SF , a lot of people will leave the game"

Say it over and over ..... it wont make it true. I dont get why ppl isnt tired of listening to the same stuff over and over .... and over and over again. God , leave this thread alone till update comes in .......

Lishy · Dec 28, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Make up your minds. One moment you want a content update, one moment you want a skill update. One moment you want sf nerfed, the other you think the nerf will kill the game.
If the playerbase can't even make up its mind, I don't think Anet will consider your opinions.
There are numerous hypocritical posts in this thread.

Fay Vert · Dec 28, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

Make up your minds. One moment you want a content update, one moment you want a skill update. One moment you want sf nerfed, the other you think the nerf will kill the game.
If the playerbase can't even make up its mind, I don't think Anet will consider your opinions.
There are numerous hypocritical posts in this thread.

Actually, I think you will find that all those posts above were made by more than one person, that their name isn't "playerbase" and that they might not agree with each other on some things!

Kaleban · Dec 28, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

No , dont be mistaken, NOTHING will come along just "by magic" . Dont be mistaken , 2nd becomes 1st when 1st goes out but it doesnt mean 2nd is AS POWERFUL as 1st. The rank of unbalanced stuff goes 1 step down and if that step is SF , it is a BIG step.

I never said it was magic. As you confusedly put, when SF is removed as the top tier farming/tanking build, something else will replace it, PERHAPS not as powerful or efficient, true. HOWEVER, the relative power of skills is not the real problem, what is IS the game's areas and reward/time ratios. In the end, it won't matter what build is "number 1" since as others have said people are lazy and want things RIGHT NOW.

If that's the case, then finishing UW in 15 minutes via SF or 21 minutes via the next speedclear meta is really no different, which means SF isn't a problem. Since your point is all about SF's relative power compared to other builds, I can see why you'd be confused as to the actual problem.

Quote:

Yeah there are lots of broken stuff so , fix all or fix none ? MEEEEEECK wrong. There are other killers out of jail so lets free the ones that are in jail too ! . Not a valid argument.

This doesn't make any sense, at all. Nerfing Shadow Form will not fix the problem that plagues GW, as I outlined above. Please make arguments that make some sort of logical sense, or don't try at all.

Quote:

Doing nothing , changes nothing. Doing things change things.

A tree is a tree is a tree etc., etc. Blue is blue. Your argument again makes no sense, except to state the obvious. Changing the game areas to make them un-soloable, by any number of options, such as mob skill randomization for example, would stop ALL attempts at speedclearing, and is a much more elegant solution than heavy handed nerfing of the one generally accepted and successful Sin build for group play.

Quote:

Yeah , SF rework and 600/smite changes will slowly killl the game ... all of a sudden because game isnt dying now , right .
That is the same reason as the number #3 in the "WTF is this guy thinking" list :

#3 "if you nerf SF , a lot of people will leave the game"

The game is already slowly dieing because people are losing interest, the content is unchanging and stale, and everything in the game is predictable. Making a popular and fun build unusable and obsolete will only make more people sick of the game, and will CONTRIBUTE to the decline. If ANet truly wanted to reinvigorate their game, they would, again, CHANGE the playing areas to make them more interesting, such as making any mob anywhere have a 0.004% chance to drop an ecto.

Quote:

Say it over and over ..... it wont make it true. I dont get why ppl isnt tired of listening to the same stuff over and over .... and over and over again. God , leave this thread alone till update comes in .......

Both sides, including yours do the same, your arguments are just as repetitive, if not more so, since your side believes a SF nerf will somehow be the Second Coming for GW and make thousands of players re-login and play in areas like Ruins of Surmia.

This will not happen unless the content is updated or altered to make areas worth visiting and played. When the entire campaign of prophecies is a ghost town except for high level areas, you know something is wrong with the design of the game, and it has nothing to do with one Elite skill that you all seem to hate so much, and for all the wrong reasons.

keli · Dec 29, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

my 2 cents:

linsey is a wonderful developer absolutely, the last pve updates were perfect and nice
BUT SHE DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE HOW TO BALANCE PVP so after 1 year we are standing here playing against 1-2-1-2-3-4-1-2-1-2 bloodspam and it is still not nerfed because they say on balance forums that new players need to get into pvp so they need an easy gimmick to play so everybody learns to play IDIOT IMBALANCED SHIT BUILDS

(+these players are changing guilds many times to farm the same guilds over and over..... isn this ladder manipulation means they should get a ban?)
(sure this is a ladder problem only, but why cant we play normal ladder matches?)

Tenebrae · Dec 29, 2009, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Bla bla bla i refuse to read and understand you fail you fail bla bla

Ok dude keep throwing BS on me or whatever ; ill put it simple so a 7 year old kid can understand it.

1-You CANT argue that there are other problems to solve to argue AGAINST solving a problem.
2-You CANT argue that because reworking SF doesnt solve other inherent game design problems Anet SHOULD NOT rework SF ( and 600/smite )

Bigger or smaller , SF is BROKEN and NOTHING you say or do or think is going to change that fact .

If you cant understand 1 and 2 as facts and see they are 100% logical ,no one ( including ANET ) can do anything for you. People is going to laugh at you if you keep throwing nonsense and telling ppl that makes some reasonable arguments that they are the ones that make no sense.

PS: LoL @ Failban nickname by Yelling @ Cats.

Kaleban · Dec 29, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Ok dude keep throwing BS on me or whatever ; ill put it simple so a 7 year old kid can understand it.

Seriously?

Quote:

1-You CANT argue that there are other problems to solve to argue AGAINST solving a problem.

I haven't tried. I've argued that SF wouldn't be a problem if the main causes were dealt with, which would by association also fix other issues, such as the other marginalized classes being more group friendly.

Quote:

2-You CANT argue that because reworking SF doesnt solve other inherent game design problems Anet SHOULD NOT rework SF ( and 600/smite )

Again, you're missing the crucial point. SF, heck ANY farming or OP build is NOT the problem? When are you going to learn this simple fact? The REAL problem is the area design, reward/time ratio and static mobs, something that's BEEN a problem for, oh, the last five years!

You're arguing that fixing a small surface paper cut will somehow stop the internal bleeding that GW is currently experiencing. I'm no doctor, but that's not how it works.

Quote:

Bigger or smaller , SF is BROKEN and NOTHING you say or do or think is going to change that fact

Its only fact to you, and that is relative to your biased opinion combined with your lack of knowledge of good and solid game design. You're woefully ill-equipped to discuss these issues, otherwise you'd understand the obvious FACT that no matter what ANet does to SF, the root cause of the problem will remain, unless ANet focuses its efforts on those root causes. Since it hasn't done so in the last five years, its a simple conclusion that ANet is unlikely to do so anytime soon, and that by focusing on skill nerfing, they're ignoring the problems.

Quote:

If you cant understand 1 and 2 as facts and see they are 100% logical ,no one ( including ANET ) can do anything for you. People is going to laugh at you if you keep throwing nonsense and telling ppl that makes some reasonable arguments that they are the ones that make no sense.

You've given no factual or logical rationale for your arguments, and continue to ignore the real problems that plague GW. Unfortunately for you, its also unlikely, given your posting history, that you'll EVER see the light and actually understand why the game is the way it is, and why the cycle will continue if ANet continues business as is.

But by all means, keep on truckin', just realize that you're a contributing factor to the game's demise.

Quote:

PS: LoL @ Failban nickname by Yelling @ Cats.

Probably not a good idea to get chummy with a guy who gets banned for foul language and being abrasive towards other forum members. Just sayin'.

Esprit · Dec 29, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

my 2 cents:

linsey is a wonderful developer absolutely, the last pve updates were perfect and nice
BUT SHE DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE HOW TO BALANCE PVP so after 1 year we are standing here playing against 1-2-1-2-3-4-1-2-1-2 bloodspam and it is still not nerfed because they say on balance forums that new players need to get into pvp so they need an easy gimmick to play so everybody learns to play IDIOT IMBALANCED SHIT BUILDS

In theory, Test Krewe will have players who do PvP and can help direct the skill balances, so there is a chance that the next skill balance will be decent. Even if the next skill balance does good for PvP, it will unlikely appease everyone.

Green Buddah · Dec 29, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Let the rich people cry about there farming builds being nerfed. Let them cry. What I wouldnt do for an 8man blanced underworld team. or a team for anything for that matter. I wont say I don't use SF or 600/smite but I would love to see them both disapear

thepermasin · Dec 29, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

What i think of this is that if they do nerf Shadow Form and 600/ Smite that the farming rate in GW will drop because there is no current solo or duo builds around. Ectos will skyrocket again. and the econmy will slow down. If they are still possible, then awesome. If not then it could cause a few players to quit, and that could influence others to quit as well. Id hate to see a nerf happen now because with the arrival of GW 2, alot of players are scavaging money to buy various things to put in their halls. I appriciate the heads up. And can't wait to hear more about this.

R_Frost · Dec 29, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

As to what I need to concern myself with, I'll keep my own counsel, not that of a Krewe guy working on skill updates to a game so far gone around the bend that there's little hope of saving it.

The thread is still open because people are unhappy with the fact that ANet is still trying to fix a game thats been out for nearly five years, and still has balance problems. Of course, its obvious to anyone with sentience that the problem with GW is not in some random skill balancing but the base design of the game, such as static mobs, reward/time ratios, and class implementation, but those MAJOR issues are being glossed over in favor of another ill thought out skill balance in conjunction with ridiculously overpriced cosmetic fluff to line the pockets of NCSoft's executives.

Truly a sad day for what once was a fine game.

we have a winner!!

the overpriced fluff could be considered development money for GW2 also.

seeing its near impossible to fix whats broken, or have a good enough reason to justify fixing a game nearing 5 years old, why nerf anything at all. there is the PVE/PvP skill split already and based on past threads PvP has its own problems. seeing PvE is all done in an instanced world, nothing anyone does, has an effect on someone else unless your in the same party. the economy has been destroyed for a long time and there is nothing that can be done to fix that, nightfall, eotn and the z-chest can be thanked for that. the so called elite areas, well thats been talked about before. short of a total redesign of those areas, theres nothing that will breath life back into them. nothing that anet does will ever get people teaming up like we use to do when it was only prophicies and factions, heros and the now redone henchie builds can be blamed for that. the player community can also be blamed some to what the game has becomed. we bitched back before nightfall was released about how crappy the henchies were and we got heros out of it, had they tweaked the builds of the henchies as skills were changed and more games were released we wouldnt of needed customizeable heros. we bitched about HM and how some areas were difficult and PvE only skills came from that. had the PvE/PvP split happened when factions came out and it was clear trying to balance 2 games worth of skills was difficult, PvE only skills would of never been needed

basicly GW1 has become an almost 5 year open beta test for GW2.

R_Frost · Dec 29, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I feel that as long as a game is fun for the "newbie", it's not going to matter what you do to the higher-end portion of your game. A good example is WoW: even with so much crying (much of it well warrented, and usually pretty big issues) and other major imbalances, you still see players flocking to the game.

A great example is Guild Wars: even though it's turn into a pretty shit game, it still managed to reach the 6mil copies mark and still sees a major load of activity.

Unless ANet did something to really hamper how newcomers play the game, they're really able to do anything.

its been discussed before but 6mil copies really isnt that many players and of those players ill bet less then a 1/3 are left or truly active. 6mil copies if every account had all 4 games is only 1.5 million players. then theres the banned accounts, accounts that dont have all 4 games, people with multiple accounts because its cheeper to have extra accounts then by storage panes or extra accounts bought to take advantage of the XTH when it was active. as much as i would love to be proved wrong ill bet there is less then 500k people still playing, probably closer to 250-300k or less right now.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 29, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

its been discussed before but 6mil copies really isnt that many players and of those players ill bet less then a 1/3 are left or truly active. 6mil copies if every account had all 4 games is only 1.5 million players. then theres the banned accounts, accounts that dont have all 4 games, people with multiple accounts because its cheeper to have extra accounts then by storage panes or extra accounts bought to take advantage of the XTH when it was active. as much as i would love to be proved wrong ill bet there is less then 500k people still playing, probably closer to 250-300k or less right now.

As true as this may be (or not be, I really don't care)...only an idiot would try and say GW wasn't successful.

impulsion · Dec 29, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Tenebrae can you please read through what you have written before you post. It is very difficult to try and understand your points when your posts consist of jumbled, angry rants.

Just a quick example, I cannot take you seriously with things like:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Bigger or smaller , SF is BROKEN and NOTHING you say or do or think is going to change that fact .

Which is undeniably an opinion not a fact, or:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

People is going to laugh at you if you keep throwing nonsense and telling ppl that makes some reasonable arguments that they are the ones that make no sense.

Which has poor grammar, unnecessary insults, opinions stated as fact again, and just makes it clear that your entire post hasn't been read through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

1-You CANT argue that there are other problems to solve to argue AGAINST solving a problem.
2-You CANT argue that because reworking SF doesnt solve other inherent game design problems Anet SHOULD NOT rework SF ( and 600/smite )

Bigger or smaller , SF is BROKEN and NOTHING you say or do or think is going to change that fact .

If you cant understand 1 and 2 as facts and see they are 100% logical ,no one ( including ANET ) can do anything for you. People is going to laugh at you if you keep throwing nonsense and telling ppl that makes some reasonable arguments that they are the ones that make no sense.

If I re-write this to state what I believe you are trying to say but more clearly (correct me if I am wrong):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae(modified)

1. You are arguing that since there are more fundamental problems, fixing this one "surface" issue is irrelevant. I disagree, since although only fixing a small part of the real problem, at least something is being fixed, and this can only be a good thing.
2. This is actually the same argument as point no. 1, but specific to SF rather than a more general and abstract statement.

We both agree that SF is a problem with the game, a broken skill.

I assert that my argument is logical, and hope that you can understand it lest you be ridiculed by greater beings.

Now, I have my own counter-argument:

Firstly, my argument relies on all builds varying in how powerful they are for farming, and thus some builds will be better than others. If the game was such that for any area there were 4 or 5 different builds, all of which were equally effective and better than any other, then this argument fails straight away. I am of the opinion that this is not the case, and that there is almost always only 1 build that excels for any particular task.

Let's draw a line to represent the power of builds:

Weak.............................................. .......................................Strong
...............|........|.................|....... ...............................................|
..........balanced..55............Obsidian........ ..................................Shadow
............PUG.....monk..........Flesh........... .....................................Form

Since SF is so strong, it doesn't take very long to farm an ecto.

Now, SF is nerfed:
Weak.............................................. .......................................Strong
....|...........|........|.................|
Shadow.balanced..55............Obsidian
..Form......PUG.....monk..........Flesh

I am just going to stretch the axis of this so we can see it more clearly:

Weak.............................................. .......................................Strong
....|...............|...................|......... .............................................|
Shadow....balanced.............55................. ...............................Obsidian
..Form.........PUG................monk............ ...................................Flesh

Look familiar? OF is not as strong as SF was, it takes a lot longer to farm an ecto. But now Obby Flesh looks just as over-powered as SF used to be.

Your argument is that by nerfing SF, a small part of the overall problem is fixed, and that this is a good thing to do. The rather subtle and easily missed point here is that, this argument relies on the premise that the greater problem can be fixed bit-by-bit. That by continually fixing small parts of the problem, eventually the entire problem will be fixed.
I do not think that this is the case. By continually nerfing builds, there is actually an infinite cycle, and you are no closer to fixing the overall problem than before you nerfed anything. One could in fact argue that it is bad to nerf SF, since it is probably more likely for people to quit because SF is nerfed than to start playing again.

Martin Alvito · Dec 29, 2009, 05:26 AM // 05:26

impulsion, you are bad at understanding the problem. It has relatively little to do with what is the most effective skill, and more to do with what is the fastest way to make a buck.

The problem with SF is that it excludes alternative play styles. It's SO good by virtue of letting you run past content that it blows alternative play styles out of the water. There's no reason to play most dungeons with anything other than redundant SF in an 8 man team. Some are so easy that they just get 605/smited, and some require a 605/smite or something similar to kill the boss. But SF is the engine that makes virtually every group farm go; it's just too good.

OF would still be OP in UW (and it needs a nerf) if SF were nerfed. However, there are a lot of other places where OF is an inadequate substitute for SF, so we could define this as "progress" because other areas would be open to alternative solutions and playstyles.

Granted, the nerfs suck if you're poor and want to grind away at 8-man farms until you're rich. However, if you're farming an area with 8-man teams, you'll never become rich anyway even with SF. There are faster ways, and you'll always be behind the curve if you're running like a lemming on the farming treadmill no matter how fast you run or how many hours you spend on it.

Perma SF has been ridiculous since the day it was made possible. It needs to go.

MMSDome · Dec 29, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Can't wait for some more "balanced" builds in FOW and UW. Will make it worth doing again.

Tenebrae · Dec 29, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Tenebrae can you please read through what you have written before you post. It is very difficult to try and understand your points when your posts consist of jumbled, angry rants.

I see youre having a hard time , not my fault. Shit happens when ppl refuses to see that 2+2=4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Just a quick example, I cannot take you seriously with things like:

Which is undeniably an opinion not a fact

Its a fact , Godmode or SemiGod mode = Broken. I gave real and true reasons so many times that im not going to do it again , do a search , im tired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Which has poor grammar, unnecessary insults, opinions stated as fact again, and just makes it clear that your entire post hasn't been read through.

In case you didnt notice , you are doing the same . Btw , please notice again that english is not my native language but you still did understand my words right ? if you have any doubts ask me and ill pm you in spanish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Already answered before me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

I do not think that this is the case. By continually nerfing builds, there is actually an infinite cycle, and you are no closer to fixing the overall problem than before you nerfed anything. One could in fact argue that it is bad to nerf SF, since it is probably more likely for people to quit because SF is nerfed than to start playing again.

The thing is that meanwhile Anet is working on GW2 i can tell you they arent going to rework almost entire game mechanics and solve those "design problems" with entire IA , mob skills set and bla bla bla.
The myth "ppl will leave the game if you rework X" is not ( and never will be ) reason enough to leave broken stuff as it is right now.

Options :
-Rework entire game mechanics
-Rework entire IA and mob skill set
-Rework broken skills that abuse first 2 ones

Real options atm : the third one , mostly because previous 2 , are never going to happen ..... X months to rework 1-6 skills for god sake , and you dare to ask to rework entire game mechanics ? please ....

Gun Pierson · Dec 29, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Its a fact , Godmode or SemiGod mode = Broken.

Says who? There are plenty of games that have 'godmode' in some way or another, even WoW with Paladin. They all proove you wrong. Anet didn't mind for years, but they gave in to the QQ bitches here on the forums.

Guys like you make it seem broken, but the spells do what they're supposed to do. Shadow Form, it's in the name itself, you can't hurt a shadow. Another example is Spell Breaker, for x amount of time spells get broken.

PvE is serious business right? If you want a more balanced environment you should play PvP, but I think a lot of the posters here just wet their pants when they hear the word PvP. They need to boost their E-peen through PvE though, all in the name of balance.

I can understand 7 minutes UWSC is not what Anet intended, but that's basically because the areas didn't have the counters to prevent that.

Bryant Again · Dec 29, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

its been discussed before but 6mil copies really isnt that many players and of those players ill bet less then a 1/3 are left or truly active.

Guild Wars doesn't base its success off of activity, hence why we discuss "copies sold". For Guild Wars it's in the top 20, although that may've altered a bit. But it's still up there pretty high.

And in-terms of activity, GW wasn't - and still pretty much isn't - a game meant for massive and massive amounts of PvE longevity.

Axeman002 · Dec 29, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

i said time and time again nerf pve prot spirit (if u use this skill u lose all enchants?)- = end of 600.

make SF a non att elite = end of perma but u still can use as a tank.

and @yelling...if u dont have somthing good to say dont say anything at all...instead of your 13 year old answers of 'your retarded'...as u have clearly shown in multiple posts, u must be on that same base level.